[Lace Watkins]

Hello @Lee .

Thanks for walking with me in this new way. I will do my best to lessen the lumpiness of this crossing as much as possible.

I am copying and pasting your last two comments in the thread that is now closed here. I will answer them both as separate comments.

Firstly, you said:

‘Hi Lace.

Thank you for your note here. Understood that you will shut this thread and understand that you would like me to read the pinned posts and the post about the leadership chat. I have read leadership post but not yet had a chance to respond. I will.

Noted that there is then a washing up thread for me to go to.

Apologies for my quietness on the boards, a combination of personal circumstances and outside reading have prevented my engagement. (not asking for carve out, just letting you know the situation so you don’t think I’ve shut down)

My outside reading has been focused very much on this ‘individulism’ of white supremacy culture that I am exhibiting, mentioned by Emily and more broadly by Julie below.

In response to you directing me to the pinned posts, I didn’t go there because I didn’t want to throw myself over them cherry picking. As required, I’m following them methodically.

Also Julie mentioned, she hasn’t done all the pinned posts herself yet so I also took it that some prior knowledge of white supremacy culture is already present? This might be a big point in the US, not so much in UK. (Or maybe i missed this)

In any case, I know what to do. I hope by the time I do it, I won’t need to come to washing up with you because I’d of answered any questions myself. I’m nothing here that

A. I need to do some of my own hand holding right now

B. Be concious of the labour I land on you as a black woman to help me to understand. (Not fair on you)’

Lee, again, thanks for your thoughtful response.

I wasn’t worried about your silence on the boards, and I appreciate your circumstances, and the fact that you do seem to have been doing some rigorous work on the issue of individualism as it regards to race.

I know that this is something of a departure from what I usually say about ‘no outside resources’, but I would be interested to see what you have been reading.

The reason I directed you to the guidelines and the pinned posts (or back to the pinned posts) is that I want you to be sure that you have them firmly under your belt before you decide to reject or amend or rework them in your own mind. No, I don’t want you cherry picking, but I would truly like to feel confident that you have digested them. This engagement with you over these last days would suggest that you may not. As to other people, like Julie and others, who have mentioned that she herself has not directly read the pinned posts; welp, that’s true. But there are some community members (like Julie and all of leadership team actually) who have, because they’ve been faithful in engaging with myself and others have the bones of the pinned posts down. Leadership team especially; they spend hours in chat with me on a daily basis, and so they’ve been immersed in myself and my method and what I talk about in the pinned posts and the guidelines. While the pinned posts and the guidelines are very important, what is more important is that these precepts, if you will, that these precepts have been considered and internalized. The pinned posts are a User Guide of sorts.

This is why I directed you back. Yes, you do need to do some hand holding of your own–*but not in the service of the individualism that you are researching and interrogating. This work is best done in community.

As well, because we are indeed New People Doing New Things In New Ways, there are areas where I stand at odds, or at least in critique, to what is considered conventional wisdom and orthodoxy–including foundational principles. An interrogation re individualism vs. collective ethos absent heaping helpings of Hesed love will be incomplete at best, and detrimental at worst.

Showing my entire hand of cards on this: I would much rather you have a firm foundational grounding in my ethos and method, and then, only having that, stack that up against outside resources, than starting with those outside resources and finding what we do wanting. Put bluntly, the charlatan cult leader wants you to be able to give what we are doing here a fair shot.

My laptop is running out of juice (Lenovo lies; when it gets down under 10%, shutting down is imminent), so I will leave this here and come back to your second comment. They each stand on their own, so they are probably best broken out anyway.

I look forward to your response @Lee .

 

 

 

Discussion

[Deleted User]

Just realised that I didn’t answer any of your direct questions. It’s difficult on my phone to answer and read the post so have to come to a PC to answer fully.

Do you feel you can walk with me? Yes. Though I am conscious of the labour I’m exhorting from you on this. Honestly, I didn’t expect the post to take off the way it did and I’m well aware that you have lots going on behind the scenes here and in your personal life. In some way that played a part in why I didn’t get involved in the after discussions too much on FB, I felt that you were already under a lot of strain and feeling exhausted. I didn’t want to add to that and chewed and chewed till I ended up here. I really didn’t want to be the one who hadn’t understood but then stayed silent and confused. I appreciate the timing and the way I posed myself wasn’tt curious at all.

Do you respect and trust me enough to do this kind of work in the way that we do it here? I respect you yes. I’d like to think that consciously I’ve demonstrated that even if my unconscious ‘individualism’ hasn’t. I recognise this bit needs weeding.

Are you willing to go shields down with me? I would like to but a part of me is feeling some defence, especially after you said to me “You’re wrong”. I felt shut down. I’m now questioning this ‘individualism’ and how it plays out for me in this community and others. I need to make some more sense on this.

Crucially, do you trust my competence and my character? I have no reason not to trust your competence. If you weren’t competent this space would have disappeared long ago. Regarding your character, I too have been subject to unwarranted attack from someone I considered a friend. To this day I have absolutely no idea what I did for that person to act that way, all I know it was uncalled for regardless. The character smear that Holly tried therefore doesn’t wash with me but I also know that we’re all human and not perfect, nor I’m I expecting you or anyone else to be.

“The way we do it” is the clench I’m having the most which is partly made up of still not understanding this ‘individualism’ in any great depth and my differing community experiences as a whole. I need to join the dots here. I always thought I was open to difference and difference of opinion and that was a good thing. Now I feel that I’ve been told that’s not OK so I need to try work out exactly what that means and where that fits into a bigger picture of supremacy individualism and harm. Just like I had to when I realised being colourblind was perpetuating a problem.

 

 

[Lace Watkins]

Hey Lee.

Do you feel you can walk with me? Yes. Though I am conscious of the labour I’m exhorting from you on this. Honestly, I didn’t expect the post to take off the way it did and I’m well aware that you have lots going on behind the scenes here and in your personal life. In some way that played a part in why I didn’t get involved in the after discussions too much on FB, I felt that you were already under a lot of strain and feeling exhausted. I didn’t want to add to that and chewed and chewed till I ended up here. I really didn’t want to be the one who hadn’t understood but then stayed silent and confused. I appreciate the timing and the way I posed myself wasn’tt curious at all.

In reading this part of your response, I am glad you respect me. But, or rather, And.

There are different levels and kinds of respect. I do believe that you respect me on a sort of macro level, but where I wonder is about the more micro level. That is, I think you, as I have seen in some writings ‘respect the chair’–you respect the position you feel I hold here; one that you seem to hold on higher ground than I do; and also about which you may also have some residue.

On a personal level, I wonder. That level of respect is ‘good enough’ for the kind of ‘diner (or rather Takeout Window)’ stance you are sort of insisting upon. I wonder though, if it carries over to the work we will be doing in the diner.

I appreciate your saying you didn’t want to add to my load, but the load *is* there in no small part because of the lack of response from the community as a whole; that includes your own. I am glad you spoke up; one reason I am taking the time and being as complete as I can with you is that I am indeed quite sure that there are others who are thinking the same things you are, both at the Takeout Window, and here in the Bistro.

Do you respect and trust me enough to do this kind of work in the way that we do it here? I respect you yes. I’d like to think that consciously I’ve demonstrated that even if my unconscious ‘individualism’ hasn’t. I recognise this bit needs weeding.

I think I spoke to this ‘respect’ piece above. I wonder if we are working with different definitions of the word.

Are you willing to go shields down with me? I would like to but a part of me is feeling some defence, especially after you said to me “You’re wrong”. I felt shut down. I’m now questioning this ‘individualism’ and how it plays out for me in this community and others. I need to make some more sense on this.

I was quite candid there, yes, mainly because I had been trying to tell you in a more bubble-wrapped way for days, and you were pretty entrenched.

Two things here: yes, that was a shock of cold water, and it’s different than how women interact with each other. We tend to do how I attempted to do with you, to no effect; we dance around things. That approach proved less than effective. As well, candidly, I did think at the time that the odds were better than even that you were going to exit the car; all signs pointed to that. If you did decide to exit, I wanted you to have that in your head; that your conclusion was incorrect; particularly in this space, and also because of my deep personal conviction about this; it’s one reason I founded this space. Sometimes it is good to know that people are both capable of and willing to speak plainly to you. The position that you took was and is harmful, for reasons I have already detailed. Having you confront this, whether or not you stayed: I stand by it.

There is another important reason, and it goes directly to white supremacy–the confronting and dismantling of which is the reason that I hope all of us are here.

I have said variants of this before: white people in general, and white women in particular, are not at all used to people of color in general, and Black women specifically, speaking to them clearly and plainly; that’s part of the deference of speech that white people feel entitled to from people of color. We are used to always having to keep white sensibilities in mind. The cultural conditioning that both white and poc women both work under (but from which only white women benefit–the toxic femininity that is the default, puts white women’s comfort at a priority–a higher priority than plain and candid truthtelling.

These days, there has indeed been a trend in some other social justice spaces for white women to allow themselves to be spoken to harshly, which they take in the spirit of self flagellation, and also which they enthusiastically join in ‘calling out’ their cohort. They mistake this for candor. It is not. They conflate feeling berated with ‘doing justice work’. It is not. What it is, is a way to elide looking at themselves, because even as they join in sometimes even bashing their own skinfolk, they also feel that isn’t applicable; so they ‘allow’ language they would never allow outside of a social justice space; certainly not toward themselves.

So coddling, yes; harshness, yes; but plain basic eye-to-eye candor? Heavens, no.

This is what we confront here, and yes, with an aim toward unpacking and dismantling this particular covert and insidious form of supremacy.

So, while I appreciate your feeling shut down at my unvarnished speech, I gently remind you to remember that being activated or triggered is not the same as being harmed; a maxim I wish my ex-intern had internalized as well.

And this more challenging word: even if I had harmed, you still have a responsibility to, even with me (especially with me) to hold your own hand, practice emotional regulation (shutting down is the antithesis of that) and have the capacity, volition, and, crucially, the agency to handle yourself well.

This lab, this practice space, has value to the exact extent that the lessons and principles can be ‘taken outside’.

Lee. If you are to do this well, and durably outside an online space, you are going to have to get used to the fact that things will not be presented to you in the way you would like; not always. Particularly when you are navigating engagement with a non-white person who doesn’t feel the need to ensure your sensibilities remain unshaken. Does that mean you should endure sub-threshold abuse? No! See above. But it does mean that you have to do a deep dive into what you deem ‘acceptable’ speech or affect from a person who, by virtue of engaging with a white woman, is already doing more labor than you are, due to the power differential.

Crucially, do you trust my competence and my character? I have no reason not to trust your competence. If you weren’t competent this space would have disappeared long ago. Regarding your character, I too have been subject to unwarranted attack from someone I considered a friend. To this day I have absolutely no idea what I did for that person to act that way, all I know it was uncalled for regardless. The character smear that Holly tried therefore doesn’t wash with me but I also know that we’re all human and not perfect, nor I’m I expecting you or anyone else to be.

I have read the above several times. Thanks for the nod to my competence; but your reason for it is debatable; longevity, by itself, is not at all a proxy for competence, nor is it at all proof of it. In any case, three years isn’t all that long.

On my character query: you did what many people do: answer the question that you wish you had been asked, rather than the actual question posed to you. I ask it again.

“The way we do it” is the clench I’m having the most which is partly made up of still not understanding this ‘individualism’ in any great depth and my differing community experiences as a whole. I need to join the dots here. I always thought I was open to difference and difference of opinion and that was a good thing. Now I feel that I’ve been told that’s not OK so I need to try work out exactly what that means and where that fits into a bigger picture of supremacy individualism and harm. Just like I had to when I realised being colourblind was perpetuating a problem.

Before I attempt to answer this piece, tell me more about your feelings about ‘the way we do it’. I have said before, almost on the daily; almost as much as I reiterate North Star–that we are New People Doing New Things In New Ways. Yes, we do things differently. That’s a feature, not a bug.

I also want to know more about what you call ‘differing community experiences’. Do you feel you are apart from how the rest of LoR community relates?

We can start here. I look forward to your responses on both pieces.

@Lee , I hope this tags you, and I hope you give me the courtesy of a response to all I have said thus far.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by  Lace Watkins.

[Lace Watkins]

@Lee , I am still waiting for you here; I have noticed that you have been posting in other rooms here in the Bistro, as well as on the Takeout Window/Facebook Page.

The work is here. This is engendering another piece we may need to talk about: engagement where it might be easier for you, rather than where you need to be, which is here.

It’s been a few days. I would appreciate your coming to this space and walking with me here.

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace.

I think I explained above about answering this thread on a PC because of its complexity. How I engage with the LOR community isn’t based on what’s easier for me but rather what device I’ve got access to at the time. However, if you’d prefer me not to engage in the community elsewhere whilst this conversation is ongoing please confirm.

Though, I just want to add that some of my comments on the FB page are in relation to the pinned posts which you directed me to complete.

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace,

First, let me trace back a bit as you asked some questions I didn’t answer here. Outside resources. Anti-Racism every day and a website called showing up for racial justice has been the most beneficial during this crossing. I’ve reverted back to the pinned posts at your request whilst I haven’t had access to a laptop which is why you’ve seen me engage in other places and not here.

May I ask a very direct question? Why do you call yourself “charlatan cult leader”?

[Lace Watkins]

Hello, and thanks for responding. Thank you for telling me the resources that you’re using. I find at least one of them problematic, but if you AR getting benefit from them, I applaud. As for your question to me, over the summer there were a couple of controversies, for lack of a better word, a couple of controversies where as part of their salvos, some people in other websites called me a cult leader, so we decided to ironically and sardonically embrace the pejorative moniker. Now that I’ve answered your question, 4 days later, are you planning on responding in a significant way to my own queries and commentary above?

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace, your response was posted 2 days ago not 4 days, or have I missed a post from you?

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace,

Respect. Yes, I respect you as the leader of this space. As for personal respect, I’m sorry but I’m not quite sure what you mean here.

I understand the load upon you from a silent community is heavy on you. I understand that you are hurt. I don’t know if others are thinking the same as me here though. Perhaps they are lurkers?

Please hear me when I say that my defence at being told I was wrong doesn’t have anything to do with my white women sensibilities. I come from plain-speaking roots so I don’t have issues with being spoken to plainly. What you said wasn’t triggering or activating for me, it just shut down discourse I felt, and in my experience of telling people “you’re wrong”, they usually double down, so it kinda surprised me to hear that here. I also understand that triggered isn’t the same as harm.

I know that the ethos here is about shoring up the muscles needed to practice outside. That in this space, getting it wrong is less important than taking action.

Piling on each other for flagellation or for self-righteous calling out isn’t healthy I agree. We can all make mistakes and call each other in without shame walking each other.

I don’t think I’ve lost control of my own bucket here, I’ve been blinded in supremacy which I expect most wp are and the crossing has been lumpy yes but I’m quite determined to make it to the other side. And I don’t expect everything to be said how I like. That’s not what I’m expecting from this space or any racial justice work I do.

When you asked do I trust your competence, may I ask, what answer you expected? Just because your work here is the only thing I know of you.

Do I trust your character? Yes. Although ‘charlatan cult leader’ conflicts with that.

‘The way we do it’. It’s not lost on either of us that I’m the only person who came forward with a conflicting opinion in this webspace and that concerns me a bit. Is everyone too scared to speak up? If they are, why? Did I miss others like me? Or, in this space am I actually the only one who had a conflicting opinion and again, if so, why? Outside of this space, there were lots of opinions but not here, not now, why? Because we’re all rooting for the same thing. Aren’t we?

You said you’re glad that I spoke up but honestly, given that I’ve been made an example of in “required reading” I’m not sure that fosters an environment for people who might want to speak up in future. It’s quite an endurance to keep up to ten “walkings” on the go! I can imagine some people may feel intimidated by it no matter how kind it was.

‘Differing community experiences’. Here my holding onto my ‘right’ to a conflicting opinion has been deemed as individualism but I’ve had a similar experience in a different community. I’ve been thinking about whether that was also supremacist of me? Or, I think you said in your last video about the group being like ‘anchovy paste’, not for everyone. Maybe this isn’t the right community for me but I’m not going to make that decision before I’ve read all the pinned posts and given the community my best shot as you advised upstream.

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace,

I’m going to ‘opt-out’ of this space just now. I know I promised to read through the pinned posts and at your request, I’d made a start but then I’ve then been guided to here for more intense questioning.

I understand and acknowledged up thread the labour upon you walking here with me. It’s clear to me as highlighted by Christina that I need to do some further reading and have some more understanding of ‘white supremacy culture’ before I engage here again.

I’d like to thank you and your team for walking with me on this ‘lumpy crossing’.

[Christina Sonas]

Are you willing to commit to a check-in after a period of time? A week or two? As I said below, it is definitely necessary to do our own work; and in my experience, and I hope now in yours, it’s surprising how often I simply cannot see what needs to be seen in order to progress, and need the eyes and voice of another to point the way.

[Christina Sonas]

There is a series in the pinned posts called White Women & Oppression which I found very helpful.

[Julie Helwege]

Hey Lee,

I continue to struggle with your “right” to disagree and others not speaking up accordingly due to fear of repercussions like walking with ten community members.

It alludes to cult-like, “swallow the fish whole” behavior that is just not this space. And this clench or seed of doubt that you’re sowing is harmful.

I also want to point out, you are not the only one who disagreed, and this is not the first time, or the last that someone will disagree with Lace.

What did you expect to happen when you challenged Lace and this community? Were you hoping that several walkers would come forward and validate your discourse? Then what?

The purpose of the space is SOLELY to lessen and mitigate the harm endured by Black and Brown people perpetuated by white people and white supremacy. That construct in itself is a game changer when it comes to discourse, especially discourse from white women toward a Black women.

Here, we listen, follow, believe and amplify BIPOC, including Lace, our leader.

You have every “right” to disagree, but the walking here is to look at that disagreement from the North Star lens and interrogate it.

If what Lace has done is out of our shared ethos, she will course correct. Of this, I have no doubt.

Lace is not out of line with our ethos here, you are – you think bringing you to the Bistro was to make you an example, except walking with you derailed an entire thread. Interrogate that.

You’ve acknowledged a white supremacy blind spot – to get through this lumpy crossing, identifying and rooting it out gets you to the other side.

And yet, you’re still holding on to your “right” to disagree, when it’s never been about that. It’s about the harm your disagreement caused and continues to cause. This derailing that continues to happen.

This isn’t a community where a meme or article is posted by a Black woman and then we all disagree with her and each other and argue about it. And because that’s not the purpose of the space, it doesn’t mean community members relinquish their rights to a difference of opinion.

I’m going to pause here.

[Deleted User]

Hey Julie,

When I used the term my ‘right’ to disagree, I believe someone else referred to it in this way in one of the previous conversations. In any case, my point was about my disagreement being termed a symptom of individualism rather than my ‘right’ to disagree. I think you’ve taken this the wrong way.

I don’t believe I’ve ever referred to ‘cult-like’ anything aside of my question to Lace up thread. Quietly, I feel like you’re projecting this onto me.

I don’t believe I challenged the community, I relayed my thoughts and questioned that I wasn’t sure how to proceed because my perspective was different. I’m sorry if you felt this way.

I never said Lace was out of line, or that I thought I was brought to the Bistro to be made an example. I think what you’ve said here is unfair. It’s also untrue. Walking with me did derail a thread and I acknowledged that. I ask you earnestly, what should I have done/how should I have handled it instead?

For others speaking out, I said I can imagine it might intimidate some people and that it is an endurance walking with a lot of members at once, which it is. In fact at times it did feel quite intimidating to me. I don’t understand why that’s a problem for you for me to say that if it’s true?

I’ve acknowledged my blind spot. I’ve agreed to complete the pinned posts and give Laces ethos a fair shot, I’m engaged here with Lace as she’s requested and speaking honestly and candidly.

[Julie Helwege]

LEE: When I used the term my ‘right’ to disagree, I believe someone else referred to it in this way in one of the previous conversations. In any case, my point was about my disagreement being termed a symptom of individualism rather than my ‘right’ to disagree. I think you’ve taken this the wrong way.

JULIE: Thank you for clarifying, but I still don’t understand. I think you’re still stuck on having a different point of view and how this affects our community and your role as a member of the community (and whether or not you should be here) – now you’ve added folks being afraid to speak up.

LEE: It’s not lost on either of us that I’m the only person who came forward with a conflicting opinion in this webspace and that concerns me a bit. Is everyone too scared to speak up? If they are, why? Did I miss others like me? Or, in this space am I actually the only one who had a conflicting opinion and again, if so, why?

JULIE: You’re not the only one who came forward with a conflicting opinion. We actually walked together on a misleading statement you made about this, than you mentioned Jamie specifically who chose to leave, and now you mentioned being the only person again.

LEE: I don’t believe I’ve ever referred to ‘cult-like’ anything aside of my question to Lace up thread. Quietly, I feel like you’re projecting this onto me.

JULIE: You made a comment previously about Holly referring to this space as an echo chamber/cult (happy to go back and pull it out to ensure accuracy). You also mentioned that you were the only one who came forward with a conflicting opinion and yes, you brought up the charlatan cult leader.

I’ll acknowledge and interrogate if I’m projecting, but I feel your comments above are harmful in that they are perpetuating a narrative that you can’t have a difference of opinion here. You can have a difference of opinion, but if it competes or is in conflict with our North Star, it’s a call in every time. That is what I continue to try to say to you. I hope that’s clear now.

I do think this is one of your white supremacy blind spots. Whether it’s the right to disagree, the fear of speaking up or really any other angle… why is it a continued and recurring focal point in walking through this lumpy crossing for you?

LEE: I don’t believe I challenged the community, I relayed my thoughts and questioned that I wasn’t sure how to proceed because my perspective was different. I’m sorry if you felt this way.

JULIE: I guess I’m struggling to understand the difference between questioning and challenging the community/Lace from your perspective? And you’re perspective was named as harmful. Yet you continue to return to this harmful perspective.

LEE: I never said Lace was out of line, or that I thought I was brought to the Bistro to be made an example. I think what you’ve said here is unfair. It’s also untrue. Walking with me did derail a thread and I acknowledged that. I ask you earnestly, what should I have done/how should I have handled it instead?

JULIE: This is your comment I was speaking to… “You said you’re glad that I spoke up but honestly, given that I’ve been made an example of in “required reading” I’m not sure that fosters an environment for people who might want to speak up in future. It’s quite an endurance to keep up to ten “walkings” on the go! I can imagine some people may feel intimidated by it no matter how kind it was.”

Gently, why are you using your fictive imagination to point out how white people may feel (intimidation) when they are being called in for harmful behavior toward BIPOC and by BIPOC, in this case Lace?

We walk in solidarity with kind candor and plain speak here. It’s a together effort. Ensuring a white person’s comfort like mitigating discomfort or intimidation is never the focus, mitigating harm endured by BIPOC perpetuated by white people is. Harmful behavior needs to be shutdown as quickly as possible.

For additional clarification, I associated “being made an example of required reading” to your public walking in the Bistro. Can you clarify what being “made an example of” meant? I should have asked the question vs. making the association.

LEE: For others speaking out, I said I can imagine it might intimidate some people and that it is an endurance walking with a lot of members at once, which it is. In fact at times it did feel quite intimidating to me.

I don’t understand why that’s a problem for you for me to say that if it’s true?

I’ve acknowledged my blind spot. I’ve agreed to complete the pinned posts and give Laces ethos a fair shot, I’m engaged here with Lace as she’s requested and speaking honestly and candidly.

JULIE: As I mentioned above, our walking here is to root and weed white supremacy behavior.

What are you hoping to accomplish by saying I’m intimidated? or I was intimidated?

How do you think that lands on Black and Brown people watching this exchange? How do you feel it lands on Lace and her leadership?

Can you pivot to race and see how much harm has been caused to BIPOC due to white people feeling intimidated?

Leaning into your feelings of discomfort and eradicating intimidation will absolutely help you be less harmful and much safer to BIPOC, online and offline.

[Deleted User]

JULIE: Thank you for clarifying, but I still don’t understand. I think you’re still stuck on having a different point of view and how this affects our community and your role as a member of the community (and whether or not you should be here) – now you’ve added folks being afraid to speak up.

‘You’re protecting your right to disagree. Why?’ Julie H Feb 19. lanes-lines-relational.

Lee: Looking back it was you who made this point to me. I feel like you’re fixed on this even though I’ve explained myself.

’I am glad you spoke up; one reason I am taking the time and being as complete as I can with you is that I am indeed quite sure that there are others who are thinking the same things you are, both at the Takeout Window, and here in the Bistro.’ Lace, Feb 26. Washing up.

Lee: I’m not stuck on having a difference of opinion. I was responding to Laces point on this thread. If there are others thinking the same as me, I asked why are they not speaking up?

JULIE: You’re not the only one who came forward with a conflicting opinion. We actually walked together on a misleading statement you made about this, than you mentioned Jamie specifically who chose to leave, and now you mentioned being the only person again.

Lee: I said ‘conflicting opinion in this webspace’. Which is different to the facebook take out.

JULIE: You made a comment previously about Holly referring to this space as an echo chamber/cult (happy to go back and pull it out to ensure accuracy). You also mentioned that you were the only one who came forward with a conflicting opinion and yes, you brought up the charlatan cult leader.

‘We foster open discussion here; it’s not an echo chamber’ Julie H, 17^th Feb anes-lines-relational. ‘That doesn’t make this community an echo chamber or a cult;…’ Julie H, 22nd Feb lanes-lines-relational. ’Put bluntly, the charlatan cult leader wants you to be able to give what we are doing here a fair shot.’ Lace 23^rd Feb. Washing up .

Lee: I feel like things are being projected onto me here, although I did mention I’m the only one with conflicting opinion ‘in the bistro’. This is true.

JULIE: I do think this is one of your white supremacy blind spots. Whether it’s the right to disagree, the fear of speaking up or really any other angle… why is it a continued and recurring focal point in walking through this lumpy crossing for you?

Lee: As far as I am aware, I haven’t been afraid to speak out? And we’ve already discussed my ‘right’ to disagree (as you put it) in the last thread to great extent. Do we need to revisit?

JULIE: I guess I’m struggling to understand the difference between questioning and challenging the community/Lace from your perspective? And you’re perspective was named as harmful. Yet you continue to return to this harmful perspective.

Lee: As I said up thread here, what I said is in response to Laces comment.

JULIE: Gently, why are you using your fictive imagination to point out how white people may feel (intimidation) when they are being called in for harmful behaviour toward BIPOC and by BIPOC, in this case Lace?

Lee: I said people might feel intimidated by the prospect of trying to endure 10 walkings at once. Not that they’re intimidated by being called in. The two things are not the same.

JULIE: For additional clarification, I associated “being made an example of required reading” to your public walking in the Bistro. Can you clarify what being “made an example of” meant? I should have asked the question vs. making the association.

Lee: To my knowledge, my lumpy crossing has been made ’required reading’. In that case, I’ve been made ‘an example of’’ right?

JULIE: What are you hoping to accomplish by saying I’m intimidated? or I was intimidated?

Lee: There is nothing to accomplish aside of my being honest about my experience in response to Laces comment. And as I said above, I retract the word ‘intimidated’ for ‘overwhelmed’.

JULIE: How do you think that lands on Black and Brown people watching this exchange? How do you feel it lands on Lace and her leadership?

Lee: It doesn’t land well. As I said, on further consideration I’ve changed my description from intimidated to overwhelmed. How it lands on leadership? Your team may or may not decide to review my experience as an active community member for future ref. At the end of the day, white supremacy culture shows up in everyone, we all swim in the soup.

JULIE: Can you pivot to race and see how much harm has been caused to BIPOC due to white people feeling intimidated?

Lee: Absolutely and I accept intimidation isn’t the same as being overwhelmed.

JULIE: Once you try and answer this question yourself, I’m happy to provide my perspective and thoughts.

Lee: Actually, this is going back over old ground. I could have taken a curious approach to my post which I didn’t. I’ve already reflected there. With regards to derailing a post and not the actual conversation, I could have come to washing up either on my own or via community guide.

Julie, please hear me. I have:

Acknowledged the harm I caused by not speaking out, apologised to Lace and set myself a task to speak up if harm is being done in future and demonstrated how I see that would look. I’ve committed to reading the pinned posts, accepted that I’ve traits of individualism white supremacy that need rooting out and further interrogation, I’ve read the by-laws and responded to the community post at Lace’s request. I’ve endeavoured to engaged with rigour and consistency. I haven’t blown up, shut down or run away. I’ve answered the questions I’ve been asked.

Some of this stuff is pretty hefty for me to get my head around on my A-game, let alone being compounded by me having to defend myself regarding things I haven’t said or you’ve misunderstood. So please, I quietly ask for you to take a step back. I’m not bothered about being called in, that’s part of the process but I feel like you’re running with the wrong end of the stick a lot. Please can you stop?

[Julie Helwege]

LEE: I ask you earnestly, what should I have done/how should I have handled it instead?

JULIE: Once you try and answer this question yourself, I’m happy to provide my perspective and thoughts.

[Rhonda Freeman]

Lee, this line is important to me: “Maybe this isn’t the right community for me but I’m not going to make that decision before I’ve read all the pinned posts and given the community my best shot as you advised upstream.” No matter what decision you make, I encourage you to read all of the pinned posts. I have (although I did not comment on all of them, yet – still working that piece). I am hoping that it will provide an opportunity to consider your experience of the word ‘wrong’ in this space and ‘disagreement’. Quite honestly, I am an electrical engineer, and I can assure you ‘relational ethics’ is not something I ever heard before this space. Setting everything I read in this space against the North Star: mitigating the harm that I do to brown and black people and the harm that is caused to brown and black people by white supremacy has narrowed my definition of ‘wrong’ and ‘disagreement’.

I am honored to be in this washing up space where I can examine my own clenches around being called ‘wrong’ – often realizing it is because I am not seeing what I am doing or writing and how it is not aligned with the North Star. In this space, I experience ‘disagreement’ as the times when I am looking to understand better what is being said by Lace and how it aligns with the North Star because I am 100% confident that is the goal – to support me in understanding that.

Not sure these ramblings help at all, consider me somebody emptying the dishwasher, listening in, and doing my darndest to learn.

[Deleted User]

Hi Rhonda,

Yes, I will read all of the pinned posts as I said to Lace I would as I really do think a lot of this space. I will consider ‘wrong’ and ‘disagreement’ as I do so in more depth. Thank you.

[Christina Sonas]

Hi Lee, Lace, Julie. Joining the conversation. Excerpts from Lee’s 2/28 2:10pm comment above.

——-

“Here my holding onto my ‘right’ to a conflicting opinion has been deemed as individualism but I’ve had a similar experience in a different community. I’ve been thinking about whether that was also supremacist of me? Or, I think you said in your last video about the group being like ‘anchovy paste’, not for everyone. Maybe this isn’t the right community for me but I’m not going to make that decision before I’ve read all the pinned posts and given the community my best shot as you advised upstream.”

I respect your determination to stick this out. That is my approach too: I will not leave, if I am challenged, if I disagree, if I see something that bothers me, etc. Or rather, when those things happen, because it’s really not a question of if. I will stay, because I’m operating on the premise that I simply do not have the knowledge or experience that justifies my having a conflicting opinion. I will absolutely have them — probably quite often — and will think they’re valuable, but they will be created through my white supremacy and not have any more reliable basis than that. So when a cognitive or conceptual conflict arises, I’m determined to put it under the microscope, identify every single component that could possibly be corrupted by white supremacy, and subject those components to a barrage of investigation. And only then, see what I truly think.

Lace said “anchovy paste”, but I think more of iocaine powder — the fictional poison in The Princess Bride ?‍☠️ Some — most? — people will arrive here with no tolerance for the “new things, new ways” approach to white supremacy that guides us to lessen and mitigate harm we inflict on Black and brown people. Like the Sicilian, they’ll fall over at the first dose. Others will have enough inoculation — aka resilience, resolve, and relentless reliability — to push through.

The following all need microscopic investigation for white supremacy, in my opinion.

• “What you said wasn’t triggering or activating for me, it just shut down discourse I felt, and in my experience of telling people “you’re wrong”, they usually double down, so it kinda surprised me to hear that here.”
• “Do I trust your character? Yes. Although ‘charlatan cult leader’ conflicts with that.”
• “It’s not lost on either of us that I’m the only person who came forward with a conflicting opinion in this webspace and that concerns me a bit.”
• “I’ve been made an example of in “required reading” I’m not sure that fosters an environment for people who might want to speak up in future.“
• “I can imagine some people may feel intimidated by it no matter how kind it was.”

What do you find when you subject your statements to deep interrogation?

[Deleted User]

Hi Christina,

Yes, I will stick it out, I note that I’ve lots of work to do and crossings will be lumpy. I don’t want to bail out of the car though. Understand the princess bride reference. Thank you.

Also, thank you for pulling out these sentences, as you know, the whole concept of white supremacy is only a week old in my head, so it doesn’t surprise me that I’m bumping into the furniture again but honestly, I will need some help with what you’re highlighting here. Simply because, if I knew it was, I wouldn’t be rooting it out here.

[Deleted User]

Hi Christina,

My apologies. Actually I don’t need you to labour here on me, I am capable of doing this myself. I thank you for walking with me on this.

[Lace Watkins]

Good morning Lee!

I appreciate that you don’t want to take up Christina’s time, but walking with you is exactly what this particular dining room is for. I think she made some good observation oh, and also I affirm the sentences that she pulled out that are worth interrogating. One of the features, dare I say, one of the gifts of community is that you don’t have to walk alone. I would gently extort you and invite you to allow her to walk with you on this. I think you would find it profitable.

[Lace Watkins]

Ok.

I am not surprised.

[Christina Sonas]

It’s definitely good to strive for your own working out of the gate. I hope you’ll bring your thoughts here so we can discuss them together.

One thing I’ll ask you to consider is your strong feeling against being made an example. The community here is rooted in hesed. That means there is no judgment for experiencing lumpy crossing. And therefore no shame. An example is just that: a maths or a grammar or a coding scenario to review the process, find the errors, practice the routine, check the results. The kind of example you’re talking about is rooted in white supremacy, definitely in USAn culture and it sounds like in British culture too. YOU are not the example. You are held in hesed. The details are the example, the learning is the example.

[Clare Steward]

I found what you wrote to be extremely helpful- when we hold each other in Hesed, the details are the example and the learning is the example. I need to remember this when I feel shame or my defenses going up. There is not judgement, there fore no shame. Thank you Christina

[Lace Watkins]

Lee has opted out of this process. However, I was formulating a response to her, but I am still going to post up here, for the purposes of putting a period on this and also for additional instruction and dialogue for those of you who have been following along. This thread is absolutely still open. The work continues, regardless of who bailed out of the car.

[Lace Watkins]

Lee made a final comment, which may or may not have been deleted, but I am reproducing it here for the sake of completeness. I am going to write my final thoughts on this later, and the thread is absolutely still open. There is a lot to learn here.

____

Hi Lace, I’m going to ‘opt-out’ of this space just now. I know I promised to read through the pinned posts and at your request, I’d made a start but then I’ve then been guided to here for more intense questioning. I understand and acknowledged up thread the labour upon you walking here with me. It’s clear to me as highlighted by Christina that I need to do some further reading and have some more understanding of ‘white supremacy culture’ before I engage here again. I’d like to thank you and your team for walking with me on this ‘lumpy crossing’.

[Author]

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