[Laura Berwick]

Over in Chef’s table we’ve transcribed some of our Leadership Team chat, a conversation we had during some recent walking. We want you to see how we roll. This will be required reading going forward, so check it out, and continue the discussion here.

https://laceonrace.com/groups/chefs-table/forum/discussion/conversation-on-community/

 

Discussion

[Jen Scaggs]

Thanks for sharing. There’s a lot to digest here. I’m realizing that the instinct to not get involved or “mind my own business” is really just helping to ensure my white comfort and to keep current power structures of white supremacy in place. I can’t help dismantle racism by minding my own business.

[Clare Steward]

I have definitely recognized that silence is violence and “minding my own business” is an active choice that upholds harm

[Emily Holzknecht]

When white people and/or white supremacy is harming Black and brown people, that is my business because I serve the North Star.

[Shara Cody]

I appreciate seeing this conversation. I can feel the trust and the care for each other and for the entire community in which the leadership team operates and the focus on our North Star. I could already see it in how leadership team members engage on the boards but this made it plain especially cause I get to see that who you are on the public boards is who you are in leadership chat.

The part that stood out to me was about confronting the harm in the right way but not just walking away afterwards. Staying in the car AFTER you’ve taken some initial action to make sure the harm really stops and to care for those involved. It doesn’t matter if the car feels like a packed bus because there are many people, I stay and keep acting. And following up when it’s done so that it won’t happen again too as Marlise was talking about. It struck me that Marlise saw the importance of providing feedback/asking questions to ensure her situation wouldn’t happen to someone else particularly Black and brown people. That is living out your praxis knowing that racism is in everything.

The walking going on with Lee has shown me how important engaging in the walking with others and not deferring to leadership team is. I walked with Lee and experienced the difference in “walking with” instead of reading and commenting after or simply engaging around a post; the difference is profound. This is what has always been asked of us here and I hadn’t done it yet. The excuses and resistance I had used were many of the same things Lee encountered in her walk and so now I better understand when people say they are pulling their own weeds as they walk with someone else.

[Clare Steward]

I appreciate that you pointed out the difference between walking with someone directly and commenting after or engaging around a post. I often clench at walking with someone out of fear of saying the wrong thing or making a mistake which just reinforces that I am centering my own comfort and my focus is in the wrong place. I think it is also a way of letting myself off the hook for doing the deep weeding and self interrogation it requires to walk “with” someone.

I keep going back to something Lace told me when I first started becoming active here after I said that I was worried about saying or doing the wrong things….that I do not trust her or the community enough. My fear stems from a lack of trust of those who I am in community with. I have to know and to trust that this community will call me in when I am out of alignment because we share a commitment to the NS. The work is in the relational and if I am not trusting those around me, I can not fully be doing the work and making the marrow deep changes required of anti-racist work.

I also think about what Dani has said to me, when I feel like I don’t measure up to others walking here….she said something to the effect that we will all express ourselves differently and have a different approach AND as long as my approach is with the NS front and center, I can have an impact and reach someone.

[Shara Cody]

I’ve felt that I trust others in the community as I’ve seen examples of people being called in and saw the Hesed love in situations that were resolved in a positive way (learning occurred and the person stayed in community) and in situations that didn’t end as well (where I think learning still occurred). Lace and community members have modeled kind candor as well as their own self assessment and course correction well. I haven’t been trusting myself enough and it keeps me out of community and prevents my own deeper rooting. I don’t trust that I can do what I’ve seen modeled and I think that is also a way that white supremacy prevents community. But the only way to combat it is to do it and learn along the way.

[Clare Steward]

I expressed similar thoughts about not trusting myself to participate in a way that was up to par with other walkers with the admins and with Lace. That’s exactly when Lace corrected me and said that I wasn’t placing enough trust in her and the community

[Jen Scaggs]

I can definitely relate to the fear of saying the wrong thing or not being up to par with everyone else. That’s an interesting perspective to say that it means I don’t trust Lace and the community enough. I agree with Shara that I have seen the way people relate to each other in such a positive way here, even in disagreement, that I should trust the community. Something to think about next time I feel that doubt creeping in…

[Shara Cody]

Yes, I think it’s centering myself and saying I trust Lace and the community is not the same as participating in ACTION in the community. So I am not trusting the community if I only “say” I do but don’t participate as required no matter what feeling (centering) I’m having. Thank you for tossing that back to me, Clare (and Lace).

[Danielle Holcombe]

I’m still ruminating on this – white women not trusting “ourselves”, not being confident that we will walk well. Clare is right that often, the truth is that we do not trust the community and are afraid to stick our next out. But there is also this hesitancy that I see over and over which says “no, I trust YOU, but I’m still afraid my words will cause harm.”

I think we need to push hard on this. I am overcomplicating things if I think I need to be able to speak or write the way another does in order to to the work *well*. And I know we each may be thinking…. But the North Star…. I don’t want to cause harm….I’m nervous I’ll say the wrong thing.

I hear all of that but Lace has made it very simple. If my behavior is out of alignment with my stated values, either my behavior needs to change or my values need to change. So with eyes on the North Star, and with thoughtful posts, I can confidently participate in all manner of conversations here.

WHEN (not if) another community member questions my word choice or points out where there is evidence of bias in my thinking, this is not failure. This is what growth looks like. It doesn’t mean comment carelessly. But it does mean that this is more than about crafting a good “harm-free” comment. How are you LIVING Hesed? How are you seeing others eye to eye in your home, in your work, in your community? Are your behaviors aligned with your stated values? If they are, you should not be afraid of the words you put forth, because they will be aligned as well.

And where I am still not seeing, you will come along beside me and show me what I missed.

[Shara Cody]

Thanks Danielle for showing me what I missed. Engaging with thoughtful posts with the ethos and guidelines/pinned posts in mind are to practice being less harmful and won’t be “harm-free”; that’s why Lace calls it a safe-ish space. I would describe how I’m living out my praxis at home, at work, and in the community overall as carefully which is not aligned with my values. Despite trying to be careful (treating interactions as “crafting a good harm-free comment”), I have still caused harm both by poor choices and by not doing enough in support of our North Star. I see that “when, not if” I make a mistake applies not only to engagement in this community but to living it out in real life where some course correction can only happen when I make a mistake. Being careful to try to be harm-free means not doing enough to lessen harm to BIPOC by me and that is not doing what I’m here to do. I’ll keep walking wherever I go with what I’ve learned here and the North Star front and center, and when I misstep, I will take responsibility for it and make a plan to course correct. If there’s something I’m still not seeing in this, I know you’ll let me know.

[Rebecca McClinton]

There’s so much in this conversation, I thank you for letting us be a fly on the wall to observe it. My head is spinning a bit from all that was packed into it. I think the thing that stands out to me the most is how this conversation itself is such an example of how “everything hinges on the relational”. In this conversation there’s a real eye-to-eye talking through, considering all angles, with everyone bringing something different to the conversation to consider. Oh my goodness, I never would have come up with even an ounce of the feedback provided by these wise souls in this conversation in total, and that’s just the point, that it can only be done like that in community, in walking together with one another.

[Emily Holzknecht]

I was following along with this conversation at the Chef’s Table through the Chef’s Table feed. It was a little challenging because I couldn’t see the threads in order the way I could have if I could have seen the comments in the Discussions tab. I’m not sure if I was supposed to be able to see it in the Chef’s Table feed, but it was useful to read the comments as I was thinking about walking with Lee and reading how each interaction there was going. My comment to Lee about zooming out I wrote after reading the Chef’s Table discussion in the feed.

[Laura Berwick]

Oh man. It took a while to build the conversation as a discussion, and I forgot there would be feed notifications. If we want to present something similar in future, this is definitely good to know. But I appreciate that you were able to glean useful elements while it was in progress.

[Emily Holzknecht]

In the discussion, Marlise asks why there are always two sides. I think we always make two sides to everything because then the situation has the least amount of risk because we can just plug and play all of the white supremacist tactics that are made for limiting risk and upholding the system when there are “two sides”.

[Vicki van den Eikhof]

Yes. And I have a tendency to oversimplify. People are so complex, and when we interact with each other, we add even more layers of complexity. That oversimplification maintains my fragility. When there are only two sides, there are only two choices and one is wrong. When I can see the complexities, many more options become available to me. Some might still be wrong, but there will be more than one right way to go.

[Clare Steward]

I really like your point that oversimplifying and only seeing things at a surface level forces a choice between right and wrong and limits our ability to see important nuances and numerous paths forward. It also keeps us stuck for fear of making the wrong choice. I’m thinking about Lace’s video on Hesed love and unilateralism…if we view situations within a firm and solid grounding and ethos, we are able to move more purposefully and swiftly and ensure we are doing so with NS front and center so we are not inflicting harm. It neutralizes the paralysis that is created with hard lines between right and wrong.

[Julia Tayler]

My girls and I were just talking about the two sides excuse. Wp seem to want to sit back and be convinced to get in the game. I know I’ve been guilty of this in the past.

[Laura Berwick]

It’s important to remember that… all of us made the whole. None of us individually came up with the entire set of ideas; each of us had something to add. You absolutely have your ounces to add. And being in relationship, not being afraid to add, and getting into the practice of adding an ounce here and there (and every ounce counts) is definitely what leads to adding cups and sometimes even gallons, in addition to ounces!

[Rhonda Freeman]

and it goes fast! Reading, digesting, considering. We are swimming in this pool of systemic racism every day and there is harm being done every day. Much work to be done. Consistent paced walking.

[Clare Steward]

I love this Laura, thank you! We all have something to add and to learn and that can only be done when we actively contribute and communicate.

[Catherine Seaver]

I really appreciate this Laura. As a new person on the leadership team I’ve been working on keeping up and paying attention to the thinking in my head that gets in the way of taking part. These thoughts are actually quite a bit like the distorted thinking that leads to my depression… I’m learning this is all part of the system of white supremacy (abuse has real patterns). And just like managing my mental illness, doing things differently here means that I need to remember my agency, I need to think critically about my thinking and I need to make a plan. I also need to help my body get grounded and settled (something that I’m learning doesn’t take that long when I practice and focus).

I’m amazed by how together, collectively we can move through big things and process and make better choices. Individualism will not help us move the stone of anti-blackness and racism. Being seen in community and focusing on our North Star with each step, will.

[Shara Cody]

Thanks for this Laura- Adding something because you never know what will help make an idea click with someone else is so true.

[Emily Holzknecht]

I am reminded again of Ralph David Abernathy and how there were people behind the scenes supporting Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr. I recently worked with a team to stop a harmful bill from passing at the state level here. It was amazing to see behind the scenes at all the people who were working there and the strategy that had been developed and I just needed to write a public statement to fit with the strategy that so many people had worked on, yet at the committee hearing from the outside looking in, it would be easy to think I was acting alone in my statement and that the points I was making were all from my own cleverness and the layering was something I just knew how to do naturally. There was so much more going on that wasn’t seen. (And yes, we were successful in stopping the bill).

[Kelsi Watters]

As others have said, there iss much to digest with all of this! i sometimes feel like my brain is slogging along. I, too, at times feel like I am not measuring up or that %how I engage is never enough. I know it’s not a good place to be, so I try not to let myself get stuck in that place. I have to say, though, I appreciate you sharingth discussion. I think there is a lot here worth emulating. To be honest, I did engage in the initial discussion with Lee, but there were no replies to my comment so I thought maybe it sounded preachy or off the point… then I got caught up in following the conversation, trying to listen and learn while wondering if I should add my voice again. Yet, I can never fully walk here and live out my praxis if I am only a fly on the wall, or let my voice fade. I’ll keep adding my ounce, and hopefully continue to add more and contribute more to the community every day. I’m grateful for this space.

[Deleted User]

Hi Kelsi,

I apologise for making you feel unheard. Actually, I’d missed your comment in the melee but I did come back to it at a later date. Just checking you got that.

[Kelsi Watters]

Hi Lee, I figured my comment may have gotten lost in the thread, and I sort of let my voice fade out after that because I was self-conscious thinking maybe I sounded too preachy or wasn’t saying it in a way that would invite someone to walk with me…. So this is on me more than it’s on you. I followed the whole thread throughout the weekend where several members of leadership, as well as Lace, modeled walking in the spirit of Hesed with the NorthStar at center. Ultimately, I think any small harm caused to me is much, much less than the harm endured by Lace and other men and women color, perpetuated by people who chose to stay silent, and people like me who let our voices fade.

[Deleted User]

Welp. There’s a mixed bag of feelings that comes with being the “lesson” so to speak. It’s a cross between embarrassment and necessity if that makes sense? But that’s OK, I’m leaning in.

I’ve read this conversation a few times now, there’s so much to take away. I think the biggest thing I get from this thread is the honesty about “feeling the fear and doing it anyway” and a self-reflection and vulnerability which is either not as present or something I’ve missed from the other conversations before now.

What fell down on me was, although I didn’t do harm there I then caused harm here. Lace’s and everyone else’s labour hasn’t been lost on me, I do accept what’s been passed on as a gift as Lace and Emily have graciously pointed out.

When considering how ‘bumping over’ as Laura puts it, involves harm, oof. I see what others refer to now as swimming in the ‘soup’.

Lastly, I see how the team really care. Not just about each other but also the person bumping around the furniture in the bistro which on this occasion is me.

[Lace Watkins]

I will say this quietly and carefully. It’s basically what I’ve been saying for weeks now. You did cause harm there. Not just you, but everyone who chose silence, for whatever reason. If, for no other reason, because it caused harm to me. And, quietly, I sort of count. But it also did harm to the men and women of color who watched that play out and watched you all stay silent and detached. It gave cover for white women, which was another form of harm oh, and all of the above caused harm to the organization as a whole. I don’t expect you to agree with me or to swallow that entire fish. But I absolutely believe that’s true.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by  Lace Watkins. Reason: Voice to text cleanup

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace, I hear you and accept that I caused harm there too. My intention and ‘thinking’ isn’t the same as my impact. I understand that I don’t get to disagree on that. I’m sorry that you’ve had to put this to me again. Leaning in.

[Lace Watkins]

I’m awake briefly. I just saw this. Lee, when you say to the effect that you don’t get to disagree, that word choice feels funky. Like you’re being forced or bullied or like there’s a metaphorical gun to your head. It’s not me that is coercing you. Hopefully, your commitment to Northstar values precludes silence and detached observation when in the presence of harm. That is to say you’re saying yes to Northstar does close some doors. But there is still agency and choice there. The way you chose to phrase seems to take away agency and choice. Am I making sense to you so far?

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace, I had in mind the way wp like to gaslight their way out of their harm. But yes, I understand how that came across. It was clumsy of me and as I seem to be on a roll bumping into stuff right now, I thank you again for calling me in.

I’ve been thinking more on this harm of silence and this ‘speaking out’ when harm is being done. I’ve got some stuff to interrogate. I also recognise that whilst I accept that I caused harm to you there, that it’s important for me not to just acknowledge that but make it known to you that “I am sorry I caused you harm” and do better.

It’s something that I’m going to actively challenge myself with going forward. Because, whilst I can find excuses in many cases to do nothing, I think that makes it easier to do nothing when I don’t have an excuse. For me, that’s not acceptable. If I want to see a change in the world I have to be that change.

[Lace Watkins]

That last sentence. Yes.

Have you been in the Washing Up room yet?

[Deleted User]

Hi Lace, yes, I’ve seen the washing up post thank you and will respond as soon as I get the opportunity to sit at a desktop to answer you fully.

.

Also, I promised I would come back on the bylaws. I’m afraid I haven’t read them in full (I have not great capacity for legal documents) but I do get the manner of the flat structure they outline.

[Lace Watkins]

It’s it’s been a few days now, and I have yet to see you in the washing-up room! Are you having problems getting in? I can have one of my staff walk you through it. But part of your commitment, to me and to this community, is to show up there as you said you would.

[Grace Bannerman]

There is a lot to glean here. I see myself in Jessie’s comment about how “if I’m worried about what people will do in response to what I do, my head isn’t in the right place…It’s a cue that I’m centering on myself and my self image, comfort, etc.” It wouldn’t be unilateral, outcome-independent action that way, and unilateralism is something I think I want (gotta get acting on it by practicing). I want to internalize the part about using my privilege to visibly hold accountable, proactively change systems or push back, anticipating the needs or potential experiences of Black and brown people as much as possible with fictive imagination.

Something clicked for me when reading Christin’s comment that “we can be there for the community without knowing the full story,” which has come across in several places as a key lesson in this situation (not without a price that requires mitigation). Obviously, timeliness and acting with deliberate speed are things I want to work on. By being here late I am benefiting from others’ work (Lace, leadership team, other community members). I had some of the same hard clenches as Lee that I am seeing walked through. I clenched about whether Holly’s accusations were true and what it meant about my participation (totally centring myself, not the harm being done to Lace. And the fact that I was so slow to recognize where harm was occurring is a big red flag – like in the conversation about wp inuring ourselves to injustice). I realize now that even then, I had no notion of continuing the conversation through eye-to-eye walking. As a thought experiment, if everything Holly said were true, my assumption was that I should bail from this community. I never thought to engage Lace about it, just as I didn’t engage Holly…an under-practiced skill, and maybe I’m still holding myself at a distance (?). Community means walking with people durably, and having challenging conversations and not bailing. I’m realizing the extent to which I haven’t internalized that. Yet.

[Julia Tayler]

It was very interesting and helpful to see how Lace and the leadership team interacts. It was a lot to keep up with but very helpful. The kind candor stood out for me. Thank you for sharing.

[Author]

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