[Marlise Flores]

If you’ve been following along in the Bistro post about the term “cult” and flipping that to white supremacy, I am hoping that has brought up significant questions in regards to parenting, especially as a white individual.

How have you applied this lens to reframing how your children are educated?

Where do you see perpetuation of cult narratives currently in what your children absorb, and what you’ve taught?

Feel free to add more as this discussion really digs into the root of if we simply put on a good show for our kids or if we are interrogating our behavior, and thus our own children’s behavior.

Discussion

[Emily Holzknecht]

White supremacy is the cult. My children are being indoctrinated into a cult. I am looking back at the list of reasons why white supremacy aligns with cult that Marlise and I made in the other discussion. I have always been interested in teaching/parenting in ways that subvert dominant narratives. I hadn’t previously thought of it specifically as countering cult indoctrination though. That brings another level of urgency to the task.

The main effort we have made to counter the isolation imposed by the cult of white supremacy has been to transfer our children to a dual language school with a minority majority population where they can have Black and brown teachers and where the children and families they know are a lot more likely to not all be white.

In terms of financial manipulation and white supremacy’s false fear of scarcity… I am remembering when I was a kid, I loved my friend so much and I wanted to give some of my money and my parents’ reaction was very clear and swift that you can’t give people money because it makes people feel weird. It seems to me now thinking about it that this was part of the indoctrination of the cult, being indoctrinated into hoarding. I don’t know how successful we have been with our own children, but we’ve been trying to counter the financial manipulation of white supremacy by communicating that money is for sharing and giving overt opportunities for our children to financially engage and to see us share our money. And to talk about money as something that is unfairly distributed in society rather than something that is earned through hard work, and that our family owes a lot of people because of the unfair ways in which we benefit in society.

When it comes to indoctrination into a system of rigid rules where behavior is modified by reward and punishment, I invested a good amount of time and energy learning how to parent through eye to eye relationship rather than through rewards, punishment and fear. Am I successfully implementing this all the time? No. But I am always working toward it and working to repair when I relapse and use power-over instead of eye to eye relationship. Closely related to this is countering the narrow range of emotions allowed by white supremacy culture and countering the techniques for blocking our emotions that we are taught. Walking eye to eye with children means holding space for each other’s emotions and respecting them while modeling not sloshing our buckets. Again, I’m not always successful, but I am always working towards doing better.

When it comes to suppression of nonwhite forms of information, one of the ways I work to counter that is to do thinking routines with the children where we recognize the validity in many forms of knowing and communicating. When very young children ask a question, most often the type of answer that an adult gives is from the perspective of a scientist, so like some scientist “fact” (though really quite often the adult speaking is not actually a scientist in that area of expertise, so it’s quite possible that what is being shared is not actually science fact, but just seems like science fact). So we do a thinking routine where we will consider, using our fictive imagination, how many different types of people might answer that question. And that can get more sophisticated as children get older, so when they are really little, it might be like the child asks “What makes the wind?” and then we all consider how might a scientist answer that question, how might a storyteller answer that question, how might a dancer answer that question and so on. Or it could be ages of people too like how might a baby answer or a teenager or a parent or a great grandparent? Though there are more interesting questions probably than the wind one for different ages of people. So the way a white person might talk about why some social dynamic exists in the world could be really different than how a Black person might talk about it. Encouraging children to seek more perspectives, to use fictive imagination, to not just accept what someone tells them right away, but to look at it in more complex ways.

We end up talking a lot about how things are not binary in our house because we have a nonbinary family member and know a lot of nonbinary people. Gender is one aspect of that, but examining all binaries and seeing how binaries are often misleading supports our nonbinary family member too as well as other marginalized populations and counters the white supremacist indoctrination. Related to gender, exploration of clothing and hairstyle is a big part of our household. I am thinking that in addition to this, we should be talking more about who is controlling what clothing and hairstyle is appropriate for what settings and why this matters. Although gender is not sexuality, sexuality that is not the dominant culture sexuality also comes up often in our household because of T being part of LGBT and the history of these communities together.

As my children have been getting older and I am also getting more practice talking about white supremacy and whiteness including my own white supremacy and whiteness, I have been getting better at talking about it all with my children too. It’s getting easier.

I am thinking we could be stronger on countering the dominant narratives about diet and exercise, especially as our oldest will go through puberty soon. I’m thinking most of what I’ve done so far is emphasize that whatever we’re doing in our household is relevant to us only. It doesn’t mean it’s the right thing for anyone else to do.

In terms of sleep and leisure, I feel like I am always struggling with how there are so many amazing things the kids could be signed up for and at the same time wanting to prioritize sleep and leisure and not overschedule and I mostly end up not signing them up for things. I feel constant tension in this area though.

Regarding the second question: Where do you see perpetuation of cult narratives currently in what your children absorb, and what you’ve taught?… I see in my older child a strong desire to be an expert and to share her expertise and to be right and to not be vulnerable to being wrong… maybe she would have always been that way or maybe it’s the indoctrination as well as her natural tendencies… I don’t know, but she has a lot of potential to be a harmful white woman. Not that my younger one doesn’t have that potential too, but I just don’t see the signs so much with them.

I am hoping to get to read a lot of other people’s reflections on this post. I found the prompt difficult to figure out how to approach, but once I found an approach, responding flowed more smoothly. Maybe after reading my response here, you will find a flow and share too so I can read your thoughts. I have definitely not done nothing, but this cult indoctrination of white supremacy is so strong, there’s no way that I’m doing enough.

[Rebecca McClinton]

@emily I really like how you point out this importance of teaching things not from a “fact”/scientific view which immediately sets up one person as a “knower” or keeper of knowledge.

I also like the way you address some of those parallel narratives we might not initially think have to do with racial justice work but do, such as narratives around exercise and diet, sleep, and leisure.

[Marlise Flores]

Emily, have you ever directly asked these sorts of questions to your kids? Asking them to notice where they are talking over others, or making assumptions, etc? For me, it seems mostly easy to critique whatever we are reading/watching, but making that next step to self awareness and self critique is one I often forget. What tools from LoR do you teach your kiddos? What ones do they not know about?

My oldest is now five, and that reframing how others might respond is helpful! She does decent at giving “right answers” as to what is harmful etc but that self reflection or thinking of others is a piece I need to integrate better.

[Emily Holzknecht]

@mboeflores One self-awareness area that we have been working on with my older one is trying to be aware of when we are defending ourselves (me and her) when someone else is the victim. Like the other day she and her sibling were playing and her sibling fell off the couch and got a big scrape on the back and their dad was trying to ask her what had happened to the other one who was crying and crying and couldn’t talk yet and she couldn’t answer that question because she was too busy defending herself even though no one was angry with her and no one was attacking her. She wasn’t going to get punished. We don’t punish them, but she was scared so she went into defense mode. And I know I still end up doing that too when I am not feeling well or tired or stressed, sometimes I fall into lame excuses and defending myself when I should be lessening and mitigating harm. So that’s an area where we have been working on self awareness for both of us.

[Jen Scaggs]

@emily That is a great idea! We often have this issue when one child accidentally hurts another and they immediately get defensive. We try to explain that the most important thing is to check on the other and make sure they are ok before anything else, but usually emotions run high in these situations and it makes it difficult for the kids to engage in the moment. Maybe a discussion later when everyone is calm would be a good idea.

[Rebecca McClinton]

I guess a few ways I work to bring attention to the cult of white supremacy in parenting is by: (1) talking about it…talking about who’s left out of the conversation, how everyday things we do impact people of color, and how things are made easy for us, bringing attention to that and the responsibility we have with that. Part of that is watching media, documentaries, getting books from the library that support that as so often kiddos are open to things not necessarily from my mouth, but can internalize them more from the mouths of others (2) demonstrating financial engagement, for example always keeping cash with me to give to folks asking for help on the street corner and having conversations about how it’s their choice to choose what they need the money for, how I should be making those decisions for them. Likewise pointing to those financial constructs of racism. (3) pointing to the relational, how what they/we do impacts the relationship with those around us. Kiddos in our home come significantly traumatized (majority of our long term several year placements have been white teen boys) and I see in a big way those tendencies to offend from the victim position. This frequently comes out in the form of violence, aggression, threats. We end up focusing a lot on emotion regulation and working to demonstrate that for ourselves, as well as making repairs. while often we can as white people cause harm with no consequence, we work to challenge that and insist on amend making processes. Some of that relational work comes from helping them build positive relationship with their own selves and healing their past trauma, which some are willing to explore and others aren’t. It’s often long slow work.

Where do I see those cult narratives in my home the most is through those trauma narratives. There is most often an internalized inadequacy and vulnerability that then weaponizes, wanting to get back at abusers or people in power or others who (sometimes just perceived) aren’t being fair. All too easily this also gets weaponized against people of color, so we work hard to build respect and dignity for people of color, different gender identities/expression than them, disability and ageism. Media, video games don’t help. We have restrictions on ratings and games to help curb that. Also being closely connected and aware of social media activity and the responsibility it is to interact with the same relational respect and dignity there as in other places.

I did have to smile when our current kiddo first connected with me on facebook (part of our internet contact is that’s a must). He immediately learned about Lace as I comment there a lot and he only had like 5 friends, so that was a lot of what was on his facebook feed. 🙂 We’ve talked about my LoR work and who Lace is, the guidelines of her space/why she has those, and he sees that on my social media interactions. “I like her,” he said early on, and we will sometimes chatter about things he sees there.

Where I need to work: (a) I think in our last kiddo (who came to us using the ’n’ word, threatening people w/ lynching, and from a history where racism was glorified), I ended up creating a white savior mentality instead. To my knowledge the overt behaviors are no longer present, but now he’ll talk about the kind things he did for people of color in a savior sort of way, and I worry that I instilled a saviorism mindset that I know can be equally harmful as the overt. (b) I want to encourage more action-oriented things in my household. I’m still sorting out exactly what that looks like (c) I want them to see me lean more into conversations with others not just between them and I, but collectively. (d) I want to continue building resources, media, to fill my home with to better represent a multitude of narratives, not just the white cult ones. I want to get better at engaging with cultural events in our community and cuisine, music, etc. while also teaching how to do that without appropriation. There’s more, but that’s what comes to my mind immediately.

[Emily Holzknecht]

@rebecca I’ve been thinking about what you said about accidentally creating a white savior. I am wondering if you have thoughts now about why it went that way for that boy. Do you think it has to do with the balance of what is discussed? Like if we teach too much about Black experience and not enough about whiteness? That is where my thinking is now. I’d like to see what others think of it.

[Jen Scaggs]

To me, it sounds more like a natural reaction to realizing he was in the wrong and trying to “fix” it, which I think is a typical adolescent response when a kiddo is finding their way and exploring their place in ethical dilemmas. The pendulum just swung a little too far the other way and will probably eventually right itself with continued conversations.

Another point to consider in other cases could be the possibility of placing a lot of focus on the victimization of Black people, but not exploring the ways Black people have empowered themselves to fight against racism or all of the positive narratives of Black people and the Black experience.

[Rebecca McClinton]

@JenScaggs I like your pendulum example. My hope is that it will continue to right itself. Though he’s moved on into adulthood, my responsibility is to continue to nurture our relationship and those conversations.

You’re exactly right that focusing on victimization added to those narratives he learned. I imagine some of that focus had to do with his own trauma narrative…tendancy to focus on that victimization, and an example of how we end up offending from the victim position so easily.

[Marlise Flores]

I think that pendulum swing, however, is still harmful and dehumanizing. White saviorism still positions us in a power position. Continuing conversations is something that I think is essential. My own thinking has changed drastically, especially as I have gotten older.

[Jen Scaggs]

Yes, I can see how it is harmful either way. I guess my thought was that we can’t expect kids to get it right the first time, and it sounds like he’s trying, but missing the mark, which I think kids often do when learning. Of course as we know, the intent doesn’t matter as much as the harm caused. I’m also thinking maybe the “pendulum swing” is caused by the tendency toward binary thinking within the culture of white supremacy.

[Rebecca McClinton]

@emily ‘accidentally’ is probably too generous of a word. My thoughts were that it was more a reflection of what I tend towards…that helper/savior inside myself that be equally as problematic as overt violence. It’s probably what he witnessed the most in my example. I was very early in my learnings of white saviorism at the time, and I think it shows in that outcome. Kids will do half of what you do well and double what you do poorly, it’s been said. I think too, that it’s reflective of the binaries of whiteness…if we shouldn’t be doing this…the ‘should’ is probably the opposite of that (according to whiteness that is).

[Jen Scaggs]

As a homeschooler, I make an effort to bring in resources from a variety of viewpoints. In addition to mainstream history resources, we use history books focused on Native American and Black American history. We also study Black and Latinx poetry, literature and folksongs alongside European/European American. I try to make sure that they see that our European American viewpoint is not better than any others. We have built a large social network of Latinx families that we interact with frequently, but that was a product of our shared interest in practice Spanish with our kids, so not exactly intentional (although the choice to prioritize teaching multiple languages to our kids, and thus expand their world view, was intentional).

I think I probably unintentionally pass on some learned values and behaviors such as binary thinking, perfectionism, punishments/rewards for behavior, sense of rushing/lack of leisure time. I’m always trying to be more open to moving at our own pace, looking at a variety of viewpoints on an issue, valuing process over product, etc. but I think in the daily grind of parenting I often fall back on learned behaviors when I’m not careful.

[Emily Holzknecht]

This morning I was thinking about the transactional nature of white supremacy. Our family has agreed to clear our own breakfast things after breakfast, but this morning my 7 year old needed help hanging something from the ceiling and instead of just asking for help which I and my partner would happily give, they said “If you hang this up for me, I will put away my breakfast.” A totally unnecessary transaction reflecting white supremacy culture indoctrination. I don’t have my exact words of my response, but it was definitely emphasizing that these two things are unrelated and that I will happily help hang that up regardless of what is happening with the breakfast things.

[Marlise Flores]

This one has been SO HARD lately for us. My five year old has been hitting a newly discovered stage of agency and that transactional/bartering system is a card that is swiftly pulled by either my spouse or me. I struggle with knowing how to balance kiddos agency without drifting into self indulgence, etc. Of course, more than I would like, the solution keeps coming back to what I do and how I act.

[Marlise Flores]

This conversation is extremely convicting for me, especially as I am working with my young kiddos. We have started discussing some intellectual aspects of racism (with the 5 yr old), but the majority of work that I have been focusing on is power dynamics. My bucket of slosh sure starts swinging with toddlers. There are a lot of power dynamics that I resisted and resented as a kid that I am realizing were still deeply ingrained in how I would eventually respond to my children. Transactional, bartering, hoarding, restricting, anger/violence reaction, emotional suppression, removal of choice, looking down, etc. Every single one pops up when I do not want to be inconvenienced (which with kids can be me just trying to wash the dang dishes). I have been digging deep into how quickly I shift into power down with my children because I know in that situation it is easy for me to gain the upper hand. If I do it with them, oh I absolutely will with BIPOC. I think that children make it fairly obvious especially when younger to see where the perpetuation of cult narratives still exist. They are little mirrors. I lose regulation once and my three year old will now be screaming at her sisters for weeks. Reversing that and reteaching that lesson (and reteaching myself) is constant.

How have your conversations shifted as your children have aged? Where have those conversations still remained academic/intellectual instead of self reflective?

[Rhonda Freeman]

I have a mixed race 21 year old transgender daughter, that is very white skinned. Sadly, I brought her up how I was brought up ‘we don’t see race’. Which, I now realize it is pretty ridiculous given that her father is of Jamaican/English heritage. Anyway, we don’t have a lot of discussions about race, but when we do they are pretty straight forward. She simply tells me that black, transgender women are the most endangered people in the USA and Capitalism at its heart is murder. One of her biggest fears is ending up working in a cube. Probably a lot more here. I guess somewhere between intellectual and self-reflective.

[Marlise Flores]

I am thinking of self reflection in relation to how I, or they, personally contribute to upholding systems. It is one thing to be able to point out systemic racism. Quite another to recognize it in oneself.

[Rebecca McClinton]

I appreciate you pointing this out, Marlise. It’s likely far more impactful re: parenting when I talk about my own mis-steps than when I externalize.

[Jen Scaggs]

I can definitely relate to your difficulties with responding to your kids, Marlise. I have some of the same tendencies with my younger child – transactional, punishment and reward. It is definitely the easier way out of a tough situation to just take control.

My older child is probably ready for some more self-reflective conversations. I’m realizing that I need to work on my own self-reflection and model that for her as a good starting point. Thanks for this reminder.

[Christin Spoolstra]

I posted a photo of Ary in her crib the day we got home from the hospital. She was in there Khmer-style, all wrapped up with pillows on all sides. Almost immediately I received a private message from someone (non-medical worker) in the UK telling me I was putting my daughter at risk of SIDS. But here’s the thing: the recommendations in the UK are different from those in other countries.

Living abroad I often catch myself still holding the primacy of the beliefs/systems of a USAn. I work very hard not to bring those into the workplace without deep interrogation and communication but I’ve always let myself continue them in my own life. Now, though, I’m responsible, along with my partner, for another life. And that life is not only a USAn but also a Cambodian.

How we choose to raise her and the beliefs we bring into our household will shape her and it’s vital that we do so with an eye to how I have been raised and shaped by the cult of white supremacy in order to break that cycle for her.

(Also, in another parenting group, I’ve just learned the phrase AFAB which is why I’ve used the gendered pronouns of she/her for our child)

[Christin Spoolstra]

Also, thank you all for your openness. I am so fortunate as a new parent to be able to learn from all of you! I feel like we’re in a place to better parent to be having your influence so early on.

[Author]

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